Forums Let`s play Agility – Spring 2022 Students Emina & Tango, 3 years old, Croatia

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  • #18581
    Emina Trivanovic
    Participant

      Here is a new video with a bad version of me. 🙂 I didn’t feel well, you’ll see that I couldn’t run in the second part, and it also probably had some effect on Tango as well.

      I did jumps as you suggested. I noticed in second combination that he had problems with the jump after the slalom. I didn’t notice while running, but afterwards in the video. According to what you said, should I have stopped doing that jump or lower the noodle?

      In the first combination he didn’t have any problems with that same jump, so it’s probably not a problem with his eyes?

      #18593
      Polona Bonač
      Keymaster

        Nice. I think that jump after slalom was just situational and not a result of his jumping problem. By than he was tired or he was really feeling you were not feeling well. Because he wasn’t totally himself overall. But what happened on that jump was IMO the fact that you were so much in front of him, but already twitching/ready to run in the opposite direction. After slalom he wasn’t focused on the jump, but on you, because you were that far ahead. His obstacle focus was diminished and so taking this jump required a lot of self control and commitment – more than he had after already being a bit tired. So nothing to worry about and I don’t think it was terribly bad to continue, however I don’t think that it was very usefull overall – maybe for stamina, but once the dog is tired, training is no longer very productive.

        #18595
        Emina Trivanovic
        Participant

          I understand, I wanted to stop but Nina didn’t let me 😀

          Tomorrow we are back to training outside at Zeljko’s place. So, the jumps remain the same as last time?

          #18597
          Polona Bonač
          Keymaster

            Yes.

            #18623
            Emina Trivanovic
            Participant

              Here are two videos for this week.

              We tried the see-saw at home. In the second attempt with his “approved helper :)”, his rear right leg slipped off. We then stopped doing it and went to jumps. I hope I did well there. Should I try the same next time?

              Jumps: started great, after first run we put the jumps a bit closer together (from 5m to 4.5 distance). Everything was then OK. What I noticed – when I set the bars, I saw something changed in the way he jumps, and he is no longer relaxed.

              And when we returned to noodles, did he start to take off too early?

              Second video: we had motivation problems because he looses his mind when a puppy is close. My friend came to training with her dog and took her puppy as well. Immediately he was lost. Same thing happened when Nina came with her puppy a few months ago. I don’t know why he looses his mind completely because of the puppy. Even in a full hall of dogs during competition he doesn’t loose concentration. But one puppy and he’s gone. I couldn’t reach him at all. No toy, no food, nothing. He just wanted to leave the court and go to that puppy.

              After that we tried doing the DW. He did it, but was also “not there” with his head.

              I have the rest on video. During the whole training he was not himself. I will avoid trainings if a puppy is nearby because it’s impossible to work. But in case a puppy does come, what to do?

              Regarding the video, it seems to me we did too much repeating. I didn’t get that impression while there. In second set Zeljko wanted to combine a part of last training with a new part, and there was some misunderstanding with the tunnels. He needed to enter the yellow, but he went into blue like in the last training. I couldn’t get him in to yellow so I sent him to the blue one to make it easier on him. After that he didn’t want to go to tunnel at all so I decided to stop.

              Sorry for the long post, but I think that’s all for this week, maybe we’ll do something a little at home.

              #18649
              Polona Bonač
              Keymaster

                “ We tried the see-saw at home. In the second attempt with his “approved helper :)”, his rear right leg slipped off. We then stopped doing it and went to jumps. I hope I did well there. Should I try the same next time?”
                Yes, all good! And yes, you can do it next time.

                “ Jumps: started great, after first run we put the jumps a bit closer together (from 5m to 4.5 distance). Everything was then OK. What I noticed – when I set the bars, I saw something changed in the way he jumps, and he is no longer relaxed.”
                Yeah, he seems to be really terrified of the regular bars. Just out of curiosity… see if you can get a bar that is a solid color. Or wrap some duck tape around one pool noodle to create same pattern than with the bars. See if visual plays any part of it or it is really just bad experience with regular bars. He even avoided it once. And yes, he didn’t go back to normal even after you replaced it with noodles. In general he is not “impecable”, has a tendency to take off early even when all is good, but in this session it was def. The bars that threw him off. So here is what we will do. You will do the single jump exercise again with the bar (that sort of shaping we did already) and also some sends over just that one jump towards the static toy. The three jump drill – do it with noodles only but start putting them higher randomly. If he struggles, put them on the ground for one repetition and stop.

                Yes that training had overall some bright spots, but he wasn’t really in the top shape the whole time. Can you tell me what happens after you throw the toy and he doesn’t get it? Rewarding him with something he is not really interested in at the moment for sure doesn’t contribute to his work ethic. Have you ever used balls with food inside? Or you could just throw food directly and make a little up and down party with it – so it is not just one boring piece of food but a whole party.
                And this is also how I would start with if you see he is distracted and not ready to work. Start with something really easy, just running up and down the tunnel with food throws on each end to excite him some more before doing a sequence that actually requires thinking.

                “ My friend came to training with her dog and took her puppy as well. Immediately he was lost. Same thing happened when Nina came with her puppy a few months ago. I don’t know why he looses his mind completely because of the puppy. Even in a full hall of dogs during competition he doesn’t loose concentration. But one puppy and he’s gone. I couldn’t reach him at all. No toy, no food, nothing.”
                That is actually not such uncommon phenomena – often dogs have much harder time coping with one distraction than a house full of them. When there is lots and lots of everything (competition environment) it is tiering for the dog so they turn it off and just focus on one thing – you. When there is only one tempting thing around… that in sticks in their head and it is hard to get out.
                I would make sure to do my best to manage such situations as well as you can. If you can ask that person to remove the puppy, do that before you bring him out to train. You can give him some puppy time as an additional reward. It also seems like it would be good for him to do some LP stuff – the basic games in different environments again. So it is all about having fun without any work expectations. If he knows he has to do something for food, food immediately becomes less valuable and the distraction overrides it. If the food is packed in a simple and fun game with no strings attached, you have much bigger chance of him cooperating. And once you can get him to play a simple game, his mindset will improve and you will be able to “throw” in more and more training.
                Him avoiding that tunnel at the end was (from what I could tell) different to when he has somnething bad happen there and refuse it out of fear. Here he was just done. Didn’t feel like doing anything anymore. Either way it makes no sense to push forward, because you will get nothing constructive out of it. In first case you only make damage. And in second case – not so much, but you don’t want him to practise being slow, unmotivated and unconcentrated… So either way it is best to just quit.

                #18712
                Emina Trivanovic
                Participant

                  Here is a short video from today. I just don’t know what to say. When we put the noodles higher, I still see these steps and preperations before the jump. I really feel we will never get this solved 🙁

                  I tried with tape on noodle so it looks more like bar. And we rotated between them on different positions, you’ll see in the video.

                  We also bought some thinner noodles which look even more like the bar and used it for shaping on single jump.

                  “Can you tell me what happens when you throw the toy and he doesn’t get it”

                  I would usually run to get the toy and call him to play, usually with no results if there is a puppy nearby. Then I go get him and take him in my arms. His attention span drops to 3 seconds and that’s it.

                  #18720
                  Polona Bonač
                  Keymaster

                    It is hard to say what is causing him that much troubles on the bar. But I still think that wasn’t totally bad – I mean it is not perfect, but it was not terrible either. He wasn’t avoiding it and he wasn’t stopping as much as he can stop on the course. I think if we could get him to improve at least to the point where he still “stutters” a little but it doesn’t kill his will to run… that would be something already,.
                    Next training try similar things, but do a couple repetitions on each height setup, even if he struggles a little bit. I want to see if the next repetition of the same thing is the same, better or worse. If it gets worse, stop of course, but if not, do 3 or 4 repetitions before changing the noodle height, let me see what happens. Same on the single jump. And try to start training with a single jump. Also a few repetitions on the same height. Than you make the 3 jump drill with noodles on the ground first and than gradually raise them.

                    And I guess we had a misunderstanding with my question. On the training video from last time I saw many times you threw the toy for him but he wasn’t really going after it. What happens next wasn’t always on the video… I think it is very important that the reward is actually rewarding for the dog. You can’t expect the training to go well or for him to ignore distractions if he doesn’t really want what you are offering at that moment. If he will take food in such circumstances, I wouldn’t give it to him after he ignores the toy and comes to you (if that was what was happening), because that way you only teach him it is normal to refuse things and ask for something else. I would run to the toy and animate it so he shows some interest and than switch for food. But also – if he refuses toy but will take food, this can be an information for you to use food when things are hard for him. You can use food throws (just have nice big treats with you), so there is big action going on along with it and it is not just one passive piece in his mouth. So instead of throwing the toy you can throw a piece of food and immediately run in the opposite direction to throw the other when he catches up with you and repeat… The better he did, the more throws he gets.
                    I think it would be good for him if you refresh my LP games (you still have access) and try to get at least one session per day of just playing, no training. Especially food throws – I think this game could help him when he is not in his best mood. You can also work on “engagement” game in different environments. Keep him on leash and only allow him to sniff or walk as far as the leash is long. Don’t follow him around. Hold your grounds and just stand there quietly, wait for him to stop sniffing or looking around and look up asking “what are we doing here”. In that moment get alive, start moving backwards, telling him what a great decision that was and reward him while moving. After you give him the reward, freeze again and wait for his attention. When he needs no time anymore from one rep to another and looks up immediately after you freeze, let the leash go and do a fast round of food throws (you running up and down full speed).

                    #18761
                    Emina Trivanovic
                    Participant

                      Hi Polona,

                      here is a video from our last training. In the beginning I gave him enough time to sniff around and then kept him on a leash for a while and waited for him to stop so that I can move on to his warm up exercises. That part was more or less OK.

                      We started with the DW because I thought that would be better to start when he is not mentally tired, but he was deconcentrated and he walked away sniffing. When I managed to ‘reach’ him he did well and got faster with each repetition.

                      In the second round he ran the course, that is in the video. I set it up the same as last time – straight jumps on the floor, turns at 20cm height. The video stops before the see-saw because the person recording helped there 🙂
                      Last round – A frame, on the second try it seems he decided to jump down?!
                      At that point I switched to the toy which got him to speed up.

                      He usually avoids all contacts at first run of the training. Is it because I don’t train them as often? I am at the course roughly 1 time per week, sometimes two, but we don’t do all contacts every time.

                      How should I set up the jumps for next training? The same, or? In the mean time I will do at home what you wrote, but please explain a bit 🙂

                      “…but do a couple repetitions on each height setup”

                      Up until which height? Full small, or?

                      “Same on the single jump. And try to start training with a single jump. Also a few repetitions on the same height. Than you make the 3 jump drill with noodles on the ground first and than gradually raise them.”

                      So, do I do?
                      single jump 3 times, increase height
                      single jump 3 times, increase height
                      single jump 3 times, increase height, OR

                      single jump 3 times, 3 jumps at that same height, increase height
                      single jump 3 times, 3 jumps at that same height, increase height
                      single jump 3 times, 3 jumps at that same height, increase height

                      I will refresh your LP games and try to play with him without training. Also the leash game, we will try to do. Sounds interesting :))

                      #18764
                      Emina Trivanovic
                      Participant

                        You wrote me I still have access to LP, but I tried to enter the playroom and cannot 🙂

                        #18773
                        Polona Bonač
                        Keymaster

                          I think that there are many factors that influence how he behaves. But in general I would say his sniffing and disconecting is most often a way for him to channel stress and cool off, than actual interest in distractions. Maybe that is not the case with puppies :D, but when I see him sniff, it is mostly a cool off mechanism. Now I am not saying that he has what we can objectively call “very good reasons” for what he is doing. But he seems to be a sensitive soul. I think he was reluctant to start each time because of proximity of other people. Both the first jump of the sequence and the tunnel were really close to where other people were sitting so he felt overwhelmed and it resulted in sniffing. This might not always be the case, even though I have noticed also on the last video from Željko’s place that he was less cooperative when he was closer to the side people were on. So when you see that happening, try to start on some obstacle further away from the crowd.
                          Than there were some sniffing when things wen’t wrong on the course. So I would also be careful how I handle the mistakes – try to not stop – either continue for at least one or two more obstacles and reward or run back to where you want to start again and do it without loosing the flow. Keep him moving. It is not even bad if you reward him a little bit no matter if he was right or wrong – for a dog like him it is more important that he stays confident and “in the flow” because he is not generally the type to ignore your handling. You can give a little reward with no emotions if he is wrong and a much bigger one with lots of excitement and praise when he is right.

                          With contacts he is also delicate – so yes, I think you sould probably do it every time you are on the field that has them, but not work on them much, just have them in a sequence and design it so the reward comes almost immediately after he does it. I know it is hard as you need repetitions to train his contact performance, but I would first focus on not avoiding them and than see what is happening with the contacts. I would especially not mess with A-frame much. With dog walk you can maybe try a normal session of running a course with DW being the last obstacle and you reward there no matter what happens, than give him good rest and do a session of just DW.

                          As for the jumping training – I wouldn’t go higher with the bars than what you did so far. When you start on a single jump, put the bar on the lowest height first and than try one more height after that.
                          With three jumps in line just do the same random variations as you always do, the only thing is – whichever variation you set up, do about 3 repetitions before changing it again. You don’t have to progress from low to high. Just do as you always do. Some repetitions with bars on the ground than raise one or another or two od them and do each variation 3 times unless you see that the second one is worse than the first one. In that case lower the noodles to the ground again.

                          You sould have access to Let’s play fall 2018, because that is the class you were in. From my perspective you have all the right priviliges so I think you were trying the wrong playroom. If not, let me know and I will try to reset it or something.

                          #18801
                          Emina Trivanovic
                          Participant

                            I did a jumping training at home yesterday like you suggested. Single jump fist at floor, then 20 and then 25cm. Three jump set we did with only second jump on 20. 3 repeats. Then we did second and third jump at 20cm, also three repeats. Each repetition he was much more relaxed (that is not always the case). I didn’t see him run like that for a long time. (smiley)

                            I agree with you – sniffing is sometimes his cool off mechanism in some situations in training (even though I never thought about it like that). But he also looooves to sniff. I can see it when we go for a walk.

                            Can our relation also be the cause? In these situations he ignores me, I might be too soft on him. People tell me I spoiled him too much (smiley)

                            And the situation where there are people in the field, he sometimes gets frightened, and I don’t know why. In these situations he is sensitive and generally doesn’t like when people approach him (especially if they want to touch him). On the other hand, he loves approaching other people. It’s like he only likes it when it’s under his terms (smiley) . In the city, shopping centers and other places nothing bothers him, he is very stable.

                            Do you think we should do some excercises to improve his jumping technique so he can understand better where to jump from? Or is it not smart to put that additional pressure on him?

                            #18830
                            Polona Bonač
                            Keymaster

                              Sorry Emina, I got super sick this weekend.
                              He was indeed ON FIRE over the grid. 🙂 That is really cool! He did struggle sometimes, but what is most important – it didn’t bring him down. And that is what I think we are realistically aiming to – I don’t think he will ever be a perfect jumper for whatever reason… but I think we can get him to not worry about it so much. And the less he will worry the easier jumping will be for him. It is just really important that you keep using those soft noodles so even if he fails, it is not a bad and painful crash that will set him back a ton again.
                              So I would repeat the same drill again. As always – if you see he is not confident and/or feeling well, you just quit and save it for some other day. Next time you go train with someone on the field, I suggest you do the following – (if the trainer gives you the freedome to do it. :))
                              Start with a single jump drill – sending him over couple of times like on this video. Make sure you are not close to people and dogs. Go from noodle on the ground to noodle on very low height. If that is ok, start adding up obstacles before that. Throw the toy for him so he knows exactly where it is and than ask him for a wrap or a tunnel first and than directly to that jump. If he is struggling, repeat a couple of times. When he is ok with that, add another jump. So eventually you do a little sequence (nice and easy) of 4–5 obstacles, with that jump and a static toy always being the last.
                              That can be your first working session, than give him a break and you can run a normal sequence after. I am curious to see how it goes. Now on the second thought – you can first get him used to this at home… you have a couple of jumps and a tunnel, so you can set it up and see how it goes. If it goes well, you can repeat it on Nina’s or Željko’s field.

                              “ Can our relation also be the cause? In these situations he ignores me, I might be too soft on him. People tell me I spoiled him too much (smiley)”
                              I mean… it always comes down to a relationship, but I don’t think the problem is that he is spoiled. If you had more firm aproach, you would probably not experience situations where he is sniffing and ignoring you totally no matter what you do, because recall can be a discipline thing. However I don’t think you can “discipline” a dog into doing sometihing fast and with enthusiasm. If you have a dog with very strong drive, it is easy. You can discipline him for stupid things or not paying attention and immediately channel the discomfort of a correction into drive.. and it works perfectly. But if the dogs drive is not super strong, you can suppress some behavior, but than you have nothing to channel it “into” and the dog just remains closed and stressed… and that is def not going to give you great agility performance.
                              He is a poodle not a malinois or a border collie. His drive is nice, but it will never “override” his brain if you know what I mean. If you “kick” an average malinois and than offer him a toy, he will grab it, channeling the frustration of correction into it so he will grab it even more than usual. If you kick Tango and than offer him a toy, he will for sure not want to play after. I am not saying kicking a dog is an apropriate correction for anything, I am just trying to set an example of how drives work.
                              So while I can imagine where those comments are comming from :D, I don’t think they are really accurate. However if I go back to my first sentence – it does come down to a relationship but in a different way. I think with you and him it is about 2 things – sometimes you are not reading his behavior really well (and it is not that it easy for a person with not much experience + having many different trainers with many different visions doesn’t help that much either) so you are not reacting the way he needs you to react. Maybe there are some situations where you could be more firm with him, but also there are situations (such as avoidance sniffing) where he needs you to help him not correct him… Most often you do neither of those things, but just keep trying to make him work, which he also experiences as some sort of pressure and it doesn’t really help.
                              So I think you need to start learning about his behavior and think about how to solve some of those situations differently to what you were used to so far. Like for example – he falls down in a tunnel, you don’t make him take the same tunnel again, to give him time to process it and forget it. If you make him do it again, he will either avoid it or do it slowly, and the experience will “burn” in his brain + he is loosing trust in you.
                              Same for example if you want to start and he is going out of his way to sniff – not because someone scattered the food there 5 minutes before that, but just out of the blue. Ask your self what he is telling you and see if it is easier for him to cooperate if you start away from people, in the middle of the course for example.
                              I am not saying you have to ALWAYS excuse him somehow – dogs do stupid things too. If he runs happily but than suddenly runs off a course because he just saw a puppy, that is another thing. You could even correct him for that if you wanted to. Or at least go there, grab him and carry him to his crate to not have fun anymore… so he knows some actions has consequences.
                              The thing is… you have to know how to “read” him properly and that is hard without proper help. You will mess up and that is normal, but if you keep thinking about it you will get to know him better and will be able to act apropriatelly.

                              “And the situation where there are people in the field, he sometimes gets frightened, and I don’t know why. In these situations he is sensitive and generally doesn’t like when people approach him (especially if they want to touch him). On the other hand, he loves approaching other people. It’s like he only likes it when it’s under his terms (smiley) . In the city, shopping centers and other places nothing bothers him, he is very stable.”
                              That is quite typical for dogs actually. He doesn’t like people in his personal space unless he asked for it. And being restrained, carried, run into a person (on the see-saw) and such falls under that category. It is what it is. Many small breeds and almost all smal shepherds act this way. Things are never black and white and I wouldn’t consider him a fearful dog… but he has things he dislikes and he is entitled to it. 🙂

                              #18836
                              Emina Trivanovic
                              Participant

                                I hope you are feeling well now 🙂

                                Regarding the next training – I understand the plan 🙂

                                “That can be your first working session, than give him a break and you can run a normal sequence after.”

                                For running the normal sequence, at which height should the straight jumps be? On the ground like before?

                                Thank you for the long reply on our relationship 🙂

                                I understand, I don’t have much experience and don’t always react well. Also different trainers offer different solutions. I find it hard to get the right decision in the moment something happens. I see it and realise my mistake later in the video, but that’s too late.

                                Ah, we are everything except simple and easy. 🙂

                                If anyone can help us, it’s you…:)

                                #18837
                                Emina Trivanovic
                                Participant

                                  Forgot to ask you, do you think castration would help with some of these problems? What is your opinion?

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                                Forums Let`s play Agility – Spring 2022 Students Emina & Tango, 3 years old, Croatia