› Forums › Let`s play – Spring 2022 › Students › Minna and Supi, pyrenean shepherd 1,5years
- This topic has 40 replies, 2 voices, and was last updated 3 years, 11 months ago by
Minna Päivärinta.
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April 15, 2022 at 1:25 pm #18724
Hi, we attend this class with pyrenean shepherd boy Supi. Supi is a very sweet boy with a very strong bond with me and I think he reads me like an open book? He has been very eager to play with me. I think his best toy is me, he learned to play with my hands and sleeves and gloves. Gradually I was able to change my sleeve for a toy and he learned to love tugging with me. He hasn’t been that interested in the toy itself, if I don’t hold them, they haven’t been very meaningful to him. Returning the toy has been automatical therefore or somtimes he forgets the toy immedeately after he has won and jumps to my hat instead. We started to do agility basics. It has been difficult for him to be at agility halls. Little by little he gained confidence and started to play also in familiar places. He started to love tugging a lot and started to be very eager tugger. Gradually it led to difficulties of releasing the toy. I wasn’t bothered it at first, I was so happy that’s he played so eagerly. When training him, I have always felt he is not relaxed. Even if he plays well, he runs like ”handbrake on” and I have thought it’s because he is somewhat uncertainty of task. If he makes a mistake, he shuts easily down and stops doing even if I try to not care about it. This led to a problem that I was afraid not to give him the toy and I rewarded everything. Also it has been a challenge that he hasn’t liked food rewards that much. He has a difficult giardia infection as a puppy and he was even reluctant to eat at that time. Now he eats quite well and I’m able to use T&T and hand given and thrown food rewards but he definitely has preferred playing and I have done few repetitions with food and then play. With food he does everything slowly and gets distracted easily.
I started to work toy relasing, (I have never had a dog who tugs this intensively) and I did all the mistakes when trying to persuade him and cheat him to get him to release. After that I saw that he was even more unrelaxed and our play started to be only ”how to get him to release”. It led to this that he doesn’t give me the toy at all, he seems to be nervous and he was reluctant to play anymore after he saw I got sad and worried when playing with him. I didn’t want to train anymore like that and decided to get some help to this problem. I read your story about your mudi and it reminded our situation so much that I decided to take part in this class?April 16, 2022 at 1:17 pm #18732Hi, this is our pokeme-video. He did this first time. It was just before food and maybe it wasn’t the best time to introduce new thing?
April 17, 2022 at 8:22 pm #18740Welcome! 🙂 That is an interesting journeuy to read. Just by seeing this first video I can see he is very intense but slightly anxious, kissing you nervously to “distract” you from an exerise he didn’t quite understand well. But I am looking forward to getting to know him more, he looks like a very interesting lad. 🙂
I think we can work on several things in this class – his overal attitude towards food and different ways how to combine it with personal play/praise. That way you can create several level of rewards so if he is the dog that easily shuts down, you can always use a small reward to prevent him from shutting down but save the good once to reward him when he has actually done well to create the difference.Than I would work on channeling his drive and anxiety into full speed running to lift that hand break…
And obviously his issues with releasing the toy. So plenty of work ahead of us. 🙂
With food I would actually start with food throws and hide&seek combo. It is dynamic and simple to understand. Somwhere during the game you can have a little poke me attempt but try to move the hand on the ground to generate more interest at first, rather than holding it still. It will probably make more sense to him to chase it and try to stop it. If not, let it be and just do throws and hide and seek again.
Separatelly you can also film one session of how playing with the toy generally looks for you2. 🙂
April 17, 2022 at 9:16 pm #18742Yes, I think you got it right? Here is our play today at agility hall. Here I don’t try to cheat him to release the toy (never again!) I need to get confidence again that I’m not trying to steal it. I think he played quite well technically but he was somewhat anxious and he was somewhat distracted by the woman filming us.
April 18, 2022 at 4:45 pm #18749Hi, I did some food throws outside for the first time and pokeme. He was sniffing at first and I tried not to activate myself before he showed interest. I think here he behaved very typically, he runs after but with no enthusiasm. Then I did some pokeme. I noticed that he likes that I hold my hand in my pocket and he can jump onto me and insist food from there. I have done it few times and he starts to show some more interest. After food play he wanted to play and I played. Few weeks ago when I was asked to play after he had done one repeat seesaw with food, he didn’t want to play after food and he got very anxious when I tried to start the play. Today he did play quite well but when I stopped he demanded immedeately food from my pocket. I would like to be able to change between food and play but at the moment I need to feel that he is ready to play (grabs my sleeve).
I also tried to throw some food onto him (no video) but I was bad thrower and I think he thought that sausege tries to attack him..
April 19, 2022 at 8:48 am #18760So first about tugging – given that he is a bit hectic by nature, make sure that you dont stuimulate that same feeling when playing. Make sure that in tugging he always has time to “breathe” and process what is going on. Of course you have to keep the tension in the toy and dynamic to some degree, but look at this two examples. At 0.32 (first video) you were keepoing him on your side and you were not really active with the toy. So he had time to take initiative and was able to shake the toy and offer some active resistance. At 0.24 (first video) he had no such chance, because you were too dominant with the toy the whole time. He is a “fighter” by nature, so he is not put off (*) if you are more “agressive” most of the time… But it is definitelly not bringing him as much satisfaction as it could + it is not contributing to less anxious state of mind. ( * he is mostly not put off by it, but it can get too much – I think that is why he at one point was no longer interested in tugging on the second video – there the toy was smaller so the “pressure phase” was really intense, you kept him really close all the time and were moving the toy constantly with fast pace. Nothing wrong with that but it was not followed by a phase where he could take more control as on the first video, so he got tired of it I believe.)
So when it comes to tugging make sure you always give him a “passive” phase – where you move him to the side and take away some of the pressure so he can take over.Food throws – it is normal that things that are not natural for the dog take some time. I would try to do this game daily. Try to get really big and bouncy (but soft) treats (hot dog saussage cut into 5 pieces is a perfect example of it). The treats should really be BIG (not what we normally use) so it flies well, bounces off the ground and is clearly visible, so you can throw “carelesly”, without focusing so much on getting him to notice it. That will allow you to move away from him sooner – as soon as you see he is off to get the treat. The fact that he will have to chase you will add to overall speed and dynamic. This game will develop through time, you just have to practise it regurarly and try to move as freely as possible.
April 20, 2022 at 6:06 am #18767Thank you for this feedback? Yes, I have also noticed myself when watching videos that I’m too active somehow and he finds not so pleasant. I have tried to think the feeling ”we have fun” but I think it makes me too hysterical and trying too much. We have had those sessions where he doesn’t want to play at all and he starts to lick my face hysterically and somehow I’m a bit restless therefore and try to play too much? Ok, so I try to let him breathe also when toy in his mouth ”low tension phase”. When is the best moment to let him win? When he starts to resist or pull himself? Yes I already noticed after this feedback that I’m mostly playing and he is just keeping the toy? We have also situations that he drops the toy immedeately he has won and grabs my sleeve instead (it’s his absolutely number one toy). I have noticed that he is a bit tired then and I try to stop the play before. In the end I say ”that’s enough” and then he jumps into my hat or sleeve as a jackpot. I think he finds that very fun and relaxing and I have let him do therefore.
I try to play with longer toys. He has learnwd to play with my sleeve and we had in the beginning problem that he bit always the toy very near my hand. Now it’s better and he bites at distance also so I assume that longer toy would give him more room to start to play himself.I try with bigger sausage beats. He finds too big pieces ”hard to eat” and starts to bite them into pieces. But I try to find the size he eats immedeately.
April 20, 2022 at 6:39 am #18770“ When he starts to resist or pull himself? ”
Yes. That way the game makes more sense – it is not just “hold on until she gets tired”, but “fight for the toy”.I don’t think he will neccessarly enjoy the longer toy, he likes things to be personal. You can try it of course, but for him playing with shorter toy is not a “no no”, you just have to make sure you switch between phases – you can do that by keeping him in front when the pressure is strong and moving him to the side of your body when you want to ease out on pressure.
It is good to have a clear signal for when to stop playing!
“I try with bigger sausage beats. He finds too big pieces ”hard to eat” and starts to bite them into pieces. But I try to find the size he eats immedeately.”
Yes, try. But even if he chews a little bit at first – it only gives you time to run further away and when he realises it is about chasing you, he will most likely stop chewing as much as he will be in a hurry. I just think it is better if the thing you are throwing is not too crunchy so he doesn’t loose a bunch of pieces in the process of chewing.
April 20, 2022 at 11:50 am #18777Hi, this is new play session with two toys. I tried to give him low tension phase and I think in the beginning I noticed him to pull and shake the toy better. From the video I look like very lazy now? During the low tension phase he jumps sometimes up to get better grip. With two toys I try to make the play more dynamic and train letting the first toy go. I put a string to make chase more interesting to him. We had a break between these two play (not on the video).
April 21, 2022 at 7:59 am #18789Really nice! See how not only your energy was different – his was too! He didn’t seem anxious and nervous at all. And definitelly took more iniciative. That part after 0.35 was super nice! Now that doesn’t mean you have to always be passive. You can put more pressure in some phases (and play more like you used to) BUT that part should always be followed by nice and long part like this, where he can take control and “catch a breath”.
In particular you can add more pressure when he is being really passive, like at the end of this video. If you see he is not active on the toy, you can pull him closer and touch his side or look him in the eyes and than move him to the side again. Or sometimes more presonal pressure (physical or eye contact rather than just shaking the toy in a more intense way) encourages an immediate reaction from the dog and you can increase the distance/move him to the side as a reaction to that (as if you could no longer handle him so “strong”).
Now work on the food throws as well, because we will start mixing the two in the next phase. 🙂April 21, 2022 at 8:50 pm #18794Food throws. He didn’t engage at first, went for a pee.. I tried to let him activate and I think he became more active during the session. In the end I played with toy (and he usually demands playing after food plays).
April 25, 2022 at 8:29 pm #18835Food throws inside. I think he was more eager than outside. He is somewhat disturbed by other dogs keeping noise behind the door.
April 26, 2022 at 12:41 pm #18843Really sorry this took so long, I got really sick over the weekend. :/
Really nice indoor session! Super good vibe and a good example of how one behavior can increase the value of food just because the energy is “contageous”. See if he would like to catch treats in the air… seems like the type! Outside we still lots of room for creating more excitement – so you will have to start MOVING! No more waiting for him, as soon as you see that he saw the treat fly and knows aproximatelly where to look for it, run away as far and fast as you can get. Just like jumping excited him in the indoor session, chasing you will outside. So really GO no waiting for him what so ever unless you see he missed a throw and has no idea where to go next. In such case you run and try to find it yourself, show it to him, throw again and RUN the opposite way as soon as he is on the way to the treat. 🙂
April 27, 2022 at 7:44 pm #18857Hi,
our food throws. First you can see problem outside. I think he was waiting me for a daily walk on the other side of the garden and it was totally wrong time to do food throws. I called him and he came eagerly and I threw first sausage. He ate it but the second one stuck somehow into his throat and he didn’t want to continue and got anxious. Then you can see two sessions inside in the evening when he is most hungry. In the other video he is already eaten, so not that hungry anymore. First I threw him food alone and I think he did well. Then I took my other dog to play as well (she is very eager with food) and he did better I think. He is used to eat always with other dogs and actually he doesn’t want to eat his food if there aren’t friends ”keeping a big party” around. I took a break and did food catching with my other dog. I think he really loved ot! I loved his attitude there and I think I have never seen him that eager with food? I used turkey,which is put on the bread so it was easy to catch. It was first time and he was bad ? I did also session outside alone with these big turkey pieces and he did well! (No video on that)
April 28, 2022 at 8:03 am #18861I love how you keep trying different things if something doesn’t work! That is the way to go! And yes, having buddies around can be super helpful, so you can make it a regular thing (not exclusively in company, but regurarly :)). Especially if your dogs are tolerant enough not to get in conflicts. You can take your other dog and start a fast round of food throws on the garden with her, him just being loose there with you2. Mainly focus on the female but if you see he is trying to get involved, throw some for him as well. Just be careful that he doesn’t just follow your movement and still ignore food – in that case reward him like you do indoors, after jump up and by dropping the treat hear rather than throwing it far.
If by “it was first time and he was bad” you meant catching treats in the air, that is perfectly normal, they need time to learn. I usually start like it is shown on the video, by just dropping the treat almost directly in their mouth first and than gradually develop from that. -
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› Forums › Let`s play – Spring 2022 › Students › Minna and Supi, pyrenean shepherd 1,5years
