Forums Let`s play Agility – Spring 2022 Students Emina & Tango, 3 years old, Croatia

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  • #18229
    Emina Trivanovic
    Participant

      Hi Polona,

      Long time no see 🙂

      Here is our third try with a class from you. I stopped attending the previous class 15 months ago because Tango got injured.

      We took a year off so he can recover. We are back in the game for the past 5 months.

      We have a few problems to solve. My main objective is to get him back to being relaxed and run as he did before. Check out the attached videos. On the old video he is roughly 18 months old.

      Even before his injury he started slowing down before jumps (mostly straight jumps).

      After the long rehab break he started jumping without slowing down, but then after he hit himself a few times, he now slows down very much, again, it’s worse than ever. You can see it in the video attached from today.

      We werent sure before why he is slowing down, but I am now pretty sure it’s because he hit himself. He remembers that hit, and now can no longer relax and run as he used to before.

      I would like to know if that can be fixed/reversed?

      I would appreciate any advice on how to train him. Should I avoid jumps, should we do more of them, I don’t know.

      Tommorow we have one more day of competition!

      #18252
      Polona Bonač
      Keymaster

        Heeey, welcome back! Just the other day I was thinking about Tango how are things going for you2 now. I can’t really be sure about what is causing this problem for him. I remember we worked on it when it first started and before his injury, but yes, it has definitely gotten worse. If it is just a confidence thing we should be able to se improvement quickly!
        I would start with my first lesson, but with bars on the ground – better yet on the ground + if you can, replace them with pool noodles, so he knows that they are completely soft and safe. Make it light and fun, lots and lots of playing and running, not asking for any particular agility skill. You can also run little sequences on your garden with just wings and tunnel(s) – so the jumps are dismantled, each wing standing independently, no bars. Just turns around those wings in any random order. Have normal distances between them and you can include the tunnel too.

        #18258
        Emina Trivanovic
        Participant

          OK, thank you, we will play like that. I already did something similar a few times and it helped him, but we never managed to get him to stop slowing down completely. It was better, but not 100% and not in full “small” height. And it was better at that moment at home but when we got to the club, it got worse. We will try again for a longer period and see if it gets better ?

          What about trainings at the club? Should he run the course normally but with pool noodles on the ground?

          In two weeks we have a competition in Zagreb, and then a break until may. Should I run in this competition? Is it a bad idea? I would like to go so he gathers experience. One thing I loved at the competition – he loved the atmosphere there. He was hyped. He didn’t sniff around as he usually does at the training. But the jumps stressed him out.

          One more thing – on the “viaduct” he jumps over like crazy so the problem is probably in his head.

          And guess what I did yesterday? ?
          It’s so hard to watch him running like that and knowing how he ran before.

          #18267
          Polona Bonač
          Keymaster

            “And it was better at that moment at home but when we got to the club, it got worse. We will try again for a longer period and see if it gets better ?
            What about trainings at the club? Should he run the course normally but with pool noodles on the ground?”
            Yes, you have to be consistent and give it time. At the club you can start with no bars at all and than gradually progress to pool noodles.

            “In two weeks we have a competition in Zagreb, and then a break until may. Should I run in this competition? Is it a bad idea? I would like to go so he gathers experience. One thing I loved at the competition – he loved the atmosphere there. He was hyped. He didn’t sniff around as he usually does at the training. But the jumps stressed him out.”
            If it was me, I probably wouldn’t go, because I wouldn’t want my dog to practise avoiding jumps and overall feeling insecure on the course. However he didn’t look too “put off” by it, his overall attitude was happy and motivated, so if you really want to, I guess it wouldn’t do much harm.

            Too bad for your accident on the first jump, he seemed to have started quite confidently and given that A-frame was the second obstacle, it could have worked as a little boost.. but things happen. So now let’s play and see how much we can help him relax.

            #18299
            Emina Trivanovic
            Participant

              Hi, this is the video from today. I improvised but didn’t have much inspiration. ?
              What do you think? No bars, no problems ?
              On friday I’ll train at the club the way you suggested (pool noodles).

              #18311
              Polona Bonač
              Keymaster

                Way to go Tango! When not stressed about the bars he is really flying! Your improv was exactly what is needed. Can you do the same at the club? At least in the first round and than maybe upgrade to some very simple sequences?
                I would like to add an additional game for your backyard training. Put a jump on the lowest possible height and sit close by. Get him to jump, but without telling him to do it or indicating it in any way. Pure shaping. At first you can be siting directly in front of the jump so he will eventually probably offer going there, wrapping one wing and coming back to you. That is good for a start. If you have a T&T machine, you can progress to “straight line” exercise where you sit next to the jump and reward him for jumping with T&T in one direction and food throw in another.
                Also keep doing all those games. He is a lot better, but I can still see some early takeoffs or calculations even with no bar, so I think it is important we keep this going without actually having him jump “real jumps”, so we can see if it totally fades away or not.

                #18335
                Emina Trivanovic
                Participant

                  Here is a video from today’s training. Sorry if it’s a bit long, we filmed everyting that we did today so you can se what was happening.

                  Notice when he ran the sequence he entered the tunnel and it took him a while to get out. Probably something happened inside. Immediately on the next run, he slows down completely on the entrance. Just shows you how silly he is with his “fears”. ? Normally he loves tunnels, they always speed him up.

                  #18353
                  Polona Bonač
                  Keymaster

                    “Notice when he ran the sequence he entered the tunnel and it took him a while to get out. Probably something happened inside. Immediately on the next run, he slows down completely on the entrance. Just shows you how silly he is with his “fears”. ”
                    I wouldn’t call any fear silly, because no matter how rational/non rational it is, it doesn’t change how an individual feels in that moment. I just recently read a post about an early takeoff syndrome and it is now believed that the reason why dogs struggle on the jumps can be short sightedness (which I believe they can fix now) or a processing error between eyes and brains – meaning that the eyes work well, but image gets processed wrongly in the brain. The fact it that we ask A LOT from the dogs in agility and even though there are many dogs that do it seemingly easily… it is still not an easy job. And you have to trust your vision damn well if you want to race full speed over jumps or in a dark tunnel. The thing is – the image “distortion” can be small at first, but it causes the dog to fall/crash the jump more often than usual, so the dog begins to loose his confidence and flow and makes things even worse for himself (gets himself in even more accidents),… and the vicious cycle continues. The dog has to learn how to “read” the images he gets correctly and trust himself to be able to clear things. So “forcing” the dog to “shake it off” is not a solution as you can’t shake it off once you loose confidence in yourself.
                    So you have to be on his side. He has reasons for his behaviour, no matter how irrelevant they seem to you or anyone else. It is clear to me that he has a reason, because with no stressors (bars) he absolutely LOVES agility, he moves really efficiently and he is really driven. So it is not that he is not motivated or he doesn’t like the sport. He struggles with an element. Not being able to trust your eyes and still run full speed can lead to accidents and he knows that, so he is rather playing it safe.
                    I think we can help him (to some degree at least) BUT with very smart training and the basic guideline is that he has to feel good and confident all the time. So if he has an accident I would stop, reward and comfort him and not ask him to do the same thing again in that training session. Give him time to shake the fear off. I would walk away from that area of the field completely and just do drills on the other side. And I would follow that rule every time he has a fall or an accident.

                    “Normally he loves tunnels, they always speed him up.”
                    True but I remember he had exact same problems before. Not wanting to go through the tunnel from one side in that exact same training hall. His refusal or being reluctant about something always has a reason. And I think it is really important that he is not being pushed through that emotion, because it is clear that it doesn’t work. He doesn’t just say “oh, I fell before, but now I didn’t so I have nothing to worry about”. He can’t just shake off what he is feeling in such a short time.

                    IMPORTANT: The more often he is “forced” to do something in a wrong state of mind (when he is hesitant of things) the more it undermines his confidence and the less likely he is to get through the issue. So the only thing to do here is to get him out of the situation and allow him to do something different, something that helps him get his confidence back and have fun.

                    Apart from that, the training wen’t well! He is a little beast when he is feeling good! All the different drills you did were nice! Apart from the additional jump shaping game I suggested in the previous post, you can also do more of straight line sends to static toy at home. Starting with pool noodles and than after a few repetitions you can put bars on the lowest possible height halfway (one side of the bar on the handle one side on the ground). It is even better if you manage to do it with a pool noodle, but I am not sure you will be able to make it stand that way. So anyways, I would do 1 or two repetitions with a slightly increased difficulty and than few more with just the pool noodles on the ground.
                    So for example 4-1(2)-4.
                    Always send him to static toy in this drill, so the reward is predictable and not moving – so it is not distracting him from anything.

                    #18424
                    Emina Trivanovic
                    Participant

                      “I wouldn’t call any fear silly, because no matter how rational/non rational it is, it doesn’t change how an individual feels in that moment. ”

                      I fully agree. Silly might have been a wrong word to use. Of course it’s not “funny” in any way. It actually makes me sad when he does that because I really don’t want him to be stressed about anything.

                      Regarding his eyes – do you think I should get him checked? Do you know a good ophthamologist?

                      In the video you can see our “homework”. I tried shaping with food, but he got bored after first try and went to get his toy. I also tried with toy at the end of the video.

                      Food throw with T&T: we tried, but he wasn’t very thrilled and didn’t really run fast. T&T is only interesting for him on DW.

                      Straight line sends to static toy: he had a problem with second jump. He hit it many times so I tried to move it closer.

                      We will be in the club on friday so we can do whatever you tell us. We will be outside so that’s even more difficult because he loves to sniff around there.

                      #18448
                      Polona Bonač
                      Keymaster

                        The eyes – it wouldn’t hurt. We have very good ophthalmologist here in Slovenija, Tadej Zemljič. Has his own clinic. Not sure anything would come up, but maybe it is worth to check.

                        Do you have a little cavaletti jump you could use indoors (or you can improvise something), so you can try shaping where he is more used to be doing it and with less smells and distractions around. With a little bit of warm up inside he will probably engage more outside as well.

                        Jumps with static toy look nice, but he did crash the second one once and jumped extra high the next time. Next training do it same way to begin with, than after a few reps put the first bar on lowest possible height for one or two repetitions and than back to noodles.

                        #18495
                        Emina Trivanovic
                        Participant

                          We will get his eyes checked during my Easter break, just to be sure.

                          Here is a video from the club. One question – first few minutes when we arrive at the club, he is totally lost in his head with all the smells. I can’t reach him, he just sniffs around the air and on the field. Even his favourite toy can’t snap him out of this “hypnosis”. What to do? Should I allow him to sniff a few minutes and then work?

                          In the course he had noodles on the ground.

                          Regarding seesaw – what do you think about it? He used to do it great when training with a helper (he runs like mad to the top, and then the helper releases it). When he started doing it alone, he started slowing down much earlier, like in the video. Also sometimes he runs so fast he has trouble stopping on time ?

                          Second video from home, I hope I understood right, only first jump has the bar, all others are noodles?

                          #18511
                          Polona Bonač
                          Keymaster

                            Nice training!
                            Sniffing – if he does that in the beginning but than works with great focus, I would probably just try to give him time to sniff in the beginning but let him know that it is his sniff time and don’t fight for his attention. Just walk him around and let him do his thing until you feel he is ready for work.
                            He was doing really well throughout the training. You can have normal trainings like this with pool noodles. I would’t be changing anything at this point to really have time to imprint this feel good, no stress vibe.
                            See-saw: it always takes a while for the dog to balance the speed correctly. If I see that the dog is stopping early I won’t repeat it without help. Either I will not do it at all or I will have someone hold it again and give a HUGE jackpot afterwards. If he is too wild, but at least somewhat correct (not flying off before see-saw even comes close to the ground) I would just keep going and than maybe repeat it again in the next sequence. Usually they feel like a superheroes once and than re-adjust themselves. But if you correct them immediately, they will correct themselves too much.

                            #18512
                            Polona Bonač
                            Keymaster

                              Sorry I sent too quickly. At home make different variations. Always start with pool noodles only and than sometimes replace the first one, sometimes the second, sometimes both. Let third one always be a noodle because he takes off too early there at times.

                              #18552
                              Emina Trivanovic
                              Participant

                                This is our training from yesterday so you can see how he behaved on jumps.

                                See-saw : I understand, but he’s very picky with my ‘helpers’ 🙂 🙂 . If there is someone helping me with the see-saw who he doesn’t know or like, he will avoid it. I think he feels uncomfortable at the moment it starts dropping while he is still moving towards the top.

                                Our next training at home will be when the weather gets better.

                                #18559
                                Polona Bonač
                                Keymaster

                                  Nice. When weather allows you outdoor training again, try to put the noodles like at home – one side on the lowest bar handle, one down. If he does a ful turn on the jump or if it is an “out” you can try with the noodle or the bar on the lowest possible height. If the jump is used twice and it is not always a turn or an out leave it on the ground. It is really important that all direct full speed aproaches remain down.

                                  “ I understand, but he’s very picky with my ‘helpers’ ? ? . If there is someone helping me with the see-saw who he doesn’t know or like, he will avoid it. I think he feels uncomfortable at the moment it starts dropping while he is still moving towards the top.”
                                  So do it only when you have an “approved” helper. 🙂 If not, only do the see-saw once or not at all. You won’t “loose” anything. Less is more when it comes to see-saw with a delicate dog. 🙂

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                                Forums Let`s play Agility – Spring 2022 Students Emina & Tango, 3 years old, Croatia