Forums Let`s play Agility – Spring 2022 Students Marcela and Catalina, 3yrs Parson , Argentina

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  • #18172
    marcela perrotti
    Participant

      HI everyone, I’m a dog trainer because of my crazy Parson that is now 3 years old. She is very food driven, she can commit to play and work at maxmiun speed, but gets’easily frustrated, and can disconnecst in a second too. So, as I’m not an experienced handler, she doesn’t forgive me many mistakes. In this sense I keep the rewarding rate high …improved a lot in giving her social reinforcemnet too… and is sth we can say is a work in progress. When sth goes wrong during the training, I just keep connected to her…not giving her the chance to disconnect and in this way she continues focused.
      I play with her structure and not structure games, doesn’t like ball so much, she prefers and loves tugging, the combat and fight and she brings the toy so we can engage…not a thousand times but a lot…I also have another dog which she prefers playing with before me and turns to her looking for a PIC, which is not. I registered for the lets play agility hoping you can help me bring the best of us. thanks in advance

      #18175
      Polona Bonač
      Keymaster

        Welcome! 🙂

        #18240
        marcela perrotti
        Participant

          Hi, I preoared this video where I played with different things i usually use, ao I could show you our struggles.

          #18255
          Polona Bonač
          Keymaster

            Nice video, I think I got a really nice idea about the struggles. I think you have 2 options – if you want to improve her playing skills and make it more predictable and reliable, I would suggest switching to Let’s play, because we can really make a difference and it will make agility training much easier.
            If you prefer to stay in this agility class, I would like to get some consistency with the rewards she loves most – instead of “crazy balls” you can have “crazy food throws” – meaning that you throw larger chunks of food in each direction, same way that I throw the toy on the video. You can first practise without obstacles on a big open field and than add first tunnel and than jump(s). You can also make some straight lines with food ball as a reward. Or chases after food pocket tug toy. It would be great to have these 3 options for the next exercises in the class. But let me know if you want to switch to Let’s play – it could be very useful for her overall drive and attitude. You can also do both if you want.

            #18275
            marcela perrotti
            Participant

              Ok I would prefer staying with lets pkay agility and try to get that consitency. Nevertheless i can do lets play and you tell me how to play thosegames and which ones I should work with her.
              – regarding the crazy food throw, I usually do it in the patio or indoors, and she loves it,( I let her look at the direction where I’m going to throw the food, give her the order and then throw the piece)… you mention to do it in an open field and quite don’t get the point of that beacuse of two issues with her: first she would spent a long amount of time looking for the food, and focusing only in that, would be more like a search excercise. Also she is literally a pacman, and has an outstanding nose: Just to mention that during our training Many dogs (10 al least we coubted once) passed through the very same spot that she did, but when our turn arrives she will detect the botsie little thing aroung and just stop there and do the search tille she finds it.
              So, tell me if I should do it in another way or any I should get into notice.
              – food ball works with everything, so I will do the straight linea as you suggest. As I said is what we use for training
              – I can do chases, but the food pocket toy is sth she doesn’t like that much. She likes toys with fillings and to make a little hole and start getting that stuff out instead. May be I can try a food pocket toy and put some filling too!!
              Get that on video and send it to you
              Thanks

              #18277
              marcela perrotti
              Participant

                Well here is the video of what I posted before. I tried a couple of different things so that you can help us better. Many thanks

                #18291
                Polona Bonač
                Keymaster

                  “Ok I would prefer staying with lets pkay agility and try to get that consitency. Nevertheless i can do lets play and you tell me how to play thosegames and which ones I should work with her.”

                  Ok. Yes, it would be great if you had access to Let’s play as well, so I can give you homework from that class as well, to make progress here faster. If you decide for that option you can send the difference to the package deal via PayPal and I will give you access.

                  “regarding the crazy food throw, I usually do it in the patio or indoors, and she loves it,( I let her look at the direction where I’m going to throw the food, give her the order and then throw the piece)… you mention to do it in an open field and quite don’t get the point of that beacuse of two issues with her: first she would spent a long amount of time looking for the food, and focusing only in that, would be more like a search excercise. Also she is literally a pacman, and has an outstanding nose: Just to mention that during our training Many dogs (10 al least we coubted once) passed through the very same spot that she did, but when our turn arrives she will detect the botsie little thing aroung and just stop there and do the search tille she finds it.”

                  It is great that she is already familiar with the game. And yes, I understand your concerns, but in reality food throws don’t encourage sniffing, because chasing you and the food is fun, so after they find one treat they are happy to chase after you to get more – it is more fun and also more of a “sure deal” than sniffing and hoping to find more treats. It is no problem if the dog sniffs a little to micro-locate the treat you have thrown, it only gives you time to run further away. And the further you get, the more speed the dog will have to give to catch up with you.
                  So I would keep doing food throws on small and big fields. When on big field you don’t have to throw super long, but make sure to run in the opposite direction as fast as possible so she really has to SPRINT to catch up with you. You don’t have to do unlimited amount of throws – 2-5 in one round and you can end the round with extra delicious treat from your hand and give her a break.

                  And I would deliver one meal per day through food pocket. Given that she generally likes to tug and she loves food, it should be a perfect reward for her once she figures it out. After you let her win you can give her some time before you go there and give her food. Give her a moment to enjoy the catch and than before she really starts to destroy it, get there, push her (gently”) away with one hand while you open the pocket with the other and show her the food.

                  #18303
                  marcela perrotti
                  Participant

                    Ok Tomorrow I will try to pay through my nephews paypla and will let you know so you give me access and tell me what to look at.

                    Food throws: I did it again in may garden, I get teh point of she sprinting. i ‘ll take it to an open field tomorrow or the next day.

                    Pocket toy: I recorded a video of two sessions with little time in between them. I have already tried it before a couple of times and playing it again now reminded me why I dropped the idea of using it as reinforcer.

                    #18312
                    Polona Bonač
                    Keymaster

                      Don’t worry, food pocket will work well as a reinforcer, you just have to build it. She needs to understand that this toy is a combination of 2 things she really loves and they are connected in a very natural way. You want food? You have to catch it and “fight” for it. 🙂 For now the game is not predictable enough for her to make that conclusion. So what to do – fill the pocket and create anticipation – you are doing this well. You can have her sitting or just start running with the toy – move it so you spark interest. As soon as she follows it and makes an attempt to stop it (don’t expect the same behaviour you get when you are playing with a regular toy and she is in the mood – all you need is some kind of attempt to stop/slow down the pocket) – for example at 1.14 and around it I had a feeling that she was “catching” it but not really strongly. So as soon as she opens her mouth around the toy, drop the toy on the ground so it is clear that it is her job to catch it and than it is hers. If you pull the toy up before giving her food, she has no interest in keeping the toy, she knows it is better you keep it if she wants to get food out of it. But if you show her that when she stops the toy, you drop it and it is hers (you just come near to help her get the food out), she will begin to understand the rule of this game and start actually catching it. When that happens, you will gradually be able to make it harder and harder – not letting it go as soon as she bites into it, but after a short round of tugging that will gradually become more and more intense.

                      #18325
                      marcela perrotti
                      Participant

                        Hi Polona, Today she got her food allowance through the pocket toy.
                        You can watck in the video how much time It took her to engsge and try grabbing it. I wouldnt even say grab but touch with her nose and mouth at least.
                        I’m playing this gamein my garden and not in an open field because she would get more distracted, specially now, when she is still not that into this pocket game as you can see.
                        In the video you can see a profression at least in the grabbing. Not much but sth.
                        But What was reslly interesting eas that after this session she looked for me to play with her (she is very conoetitive) because I started playing ball throws with her sister… so I got a tug toy to play with her, she was full into the tug gsme and after a while I ask her for a couple of wings wraps and tunnel in sequence, rewarding her with me running a little behind her and threwing her the tug toy ahead, she run fast to get it and came back looking for me to get some tug for the first time.

                        #18334
                        Polona Bonač
                        Keymaster

                          No worries! Just insist! Every (or almost every) meal like this and she will get it. It takes some time to build. If she shows no interest for chasing you can just leave the bag rest on the ground, slightly open so the smell is coming out and wait. Like you are fishing. It is best if she observes you when you are putting it on the ground. When she starts sniffing and trying to grab it, just pull it slightly… just for a couple of cm and rest again. Than repeat until she puts a paw on it or something.
                          But I can see that even if it doesn’t happen immediately, you manage to engage her, so I have no doubt it will work when she gets enough practise. You can also work on other agility games, but use food throws/food ball as a reward.
                          It is great that she was in such a playful and productive mode after! 🙂

                          #18336
                          marcela perrotti
                          Participant

                            Hi, I used food throws and ball this time, together with the pocket toy.
                            When I use the food alone notice that she focuses in me and my hand and not the element.
                            The food ball gives me that committment with the element
                            Do you think that working with the food throws I will get to that or better committment too? Or the purpose is different? Because till I discovered the food ball, i almost had to lured her through the elements and she even jumped at me, asking for the reward.
                            The pocket toy work is in process, when you say try another agility games what do you refer to?
                            Tomorrow we will go to the club and will try food throws with distance… not with elements only sprinting… or should I continue adding elements?

                            #18354
                            Polona Bonač
                            Keymaster

                              “When I use the food alone notice that she focuses in me and my hand and not the element.
                              The food ball gives me that committment with the element
                              Do you think that working with the food throws I will get to that or better committment too?”
                              Yes, that is good and correct observation. The problem of feeding from the hand is that the dog is not motivated to move away from the hand/you. Throwing can absolutely help that. If you do my “brainiac crazy ball” exercise with food throws instead of balls, it can work just as well.

                              Food pocket – at the start of the session she was a bit slow to “turn on”. If movement doesn’t encourage her, you can try the other thing I suggested, just leaving the food pocket (slightly open) on the ground in front of her and let her do whatever she pleases. If she knows there is food inside she is likely to go sniff (especially if you do that in some room where her space to wander around is even more limited).
                              Another option is that you create anticipation while filling the bag. Kind of what you did at 4.50 – talk to her, fill the bag really obviously and walk when you do it, so the whole action makes her interested in what you are preparing for her.
                              Throughout the session when you see she is more engaged, you can try to make it a bit more difficult for her to win – asking for a slightly stronger (and longer) bite.

                              You probably already did train on the club this weekend, but in general you can do all my “brainiac” games, using food ball or food throws as a reward.

                              #18376
                              marcela perrotti
                              Participant

                                Hi, we did train in the club but I took her to a new site and it was a little bit of a challenge for my sniffing terrier.
                                I first took her around the training area on leash. Let her explore a little bit, but not that much too. There was some horse and cow shit in the training area so I took special care for that not letting reinforce herself by eating it.
                                Considering the whole situation of the new emvironment, the exercises where fluid and easy not to get her frustrated and keep her motivated.

                                -I started with the Food ball and it was a little bit difficult to get her to connect with me and the games.
                                -Then I did some of “brainiac food thows” in the training area
                                1) first With obstacles: the sprintings weren’t that good and the fact thst I had to walk with her to show her where I threw the “big” enough pieces, doesn’t help. Plus I think she doesn’t sprint that much to the food as she does with the food ball. With both I finally end going there to help her and the main difference should be that with the food I wouldn’t have to go there… wouldn’t I?
                                2) second with no obstacles: it worked better. We did some good sprints.
                                As far as and lconcentration/distraction issues vs the sure deal of running after me, don’t seem that sure for her ?‍♀️

                                Here is our video

                                https://youtu.be/nHQpJ-aQ0rU

                                Food pocket will do it at home
                                -Everything in a limited area so that she doesn’t wander around (checked)
                                – Movement (checked)
                                – slightly open bag (checked)
                                -anticipation while filling the bag and me moving with hertoo (checked)
                                – building a slightly longer and stronger bite (checked)

                                #18386
                                Polona Bonač
                                Keymaster

                                  I am sorry I can’t see the video because it is set to private. You have to change it to unlisted or public.
                                  Will tell you more when I see how it wen’t, but give those games some time. Dogs need some time to fully develop drive for things. It helps if you give her most of her food through games – food pocket, food ball, food throws. If the dog is not seeing the treat maybe also your timing of throws was not the best… I will see and we will find a way! 🙂

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                                Forums Let`s play Agility – Spring 2022 Students Marcela and Catalina, 3yrs Parson , Argentina